Most athletic lifting sport

[phil]

Okay, in which sport do you think people have to be the most athletic?

Power lifting


Strongman


Olympic lifting


(or something else)

[phil]

My vote is for strongman. One reason is because out of the three it is the only one you have to move with weight.

[vincedecker]

I'm glad you decided to ask a non-controversial question. lol. I think weightlifting is the hardest sport to do well. While you don't move with weights, you have to move weight fast, be coordinated, flexible, quick into your catch positions and strong in your catch positions to succeed with a lift.
The better the athlete you are, the better you will be at Strongman as well. The degree of athleticism needed to do well can vary from contest to contest, but the better athletes who have acquired a good deal of static strength always will emerge as the better Strongmen.
You definitely have to be a good athlete to succeed at both sports, just in different ways. I would give a slight edge to weightlifting is all. The thing that sucks is that I have seen a bit of an elitist attitude amongst some of the older guard in weightlifting which destriys the possibility of a brotherhood mentality between the strength sports. Funny thing is, in the older days, many strength athletes crossed between iron game sports all the time (to their benefit).

[cwetlaufer]

My definition of athletic-

A combination of speed, agility, quickness, strength, endurance, and recovery in a well rounded fashion.

Only one of the sports listed has that. Powerlifting and Olympic lifting are both static strength sports, meaning, you stand in one spot and lift.

I could go on and on about how hard olympic lifting technique is, or the mental toughness to get under a 1000 lbs bar, but that isn't what you asked.

Strongman is the most athletic strength sport. Heck, it was created to see who the best overall strength "athlete" was regardless of sport originally......

[phil]

I wonder how well Olympic lifters could do a monster dumb bell. Originally I was thinking they would be really good at it, but after thinking about it for a bit I'm not so sure. I've only been to one meet ever but I noticed the lifters really used the whip of the bar to help them get the weight pressed. I am yet to see a dumbbell whip.
Anyone have any input on this?

[cwetlaufer]

I think the whip of the bar is used a ton, but the explosive power of oly lifters I think makes them good at all OH events. At least in the crossover competitors I've seen.

But I'll shut up since I don't oly lift.

[kingklavetter]

NFL defensive backs and halfbacks
Fighters
Most track and field athletes
Not Tiger Woods

[cwetlaufer]

non of those are lifting sports and offer a different discusion.

[Jared Enderton]

in strongman... you are right, all of those things are used, but not well.

When I think of athletic... I think of fast twitch muscles for the most part. you rarely ever hear of someone calling a slow twitch athlete extremely "athletic." Why? Because they don't move RAPIDLY, or extremely fast. They don't switch directions, cut, or run fast. They can sustain a certain effort over a period of time. But they generally don't have that elite burst.

Speed: there really isn't an event in strongman where I say "oh my gosh that guy is FAST, look how athletic he is!!" Normally it is relative to other, slower guys he is competing against.

Agility/quickness: again, if you have this you will be a better strongman. However, to what degree does ANY strongman posess it? I mean seriously? Not in ANY sort of a fashion to where I would compare them to any real athlete I could consider athletic...

strength: given

endurance: some no, some yes

recovery: agreed, but, it depends if youa re talking from workout to workout or from set to set. I mean most strongman train what, 4 days/week? The top o lifters train 3x in 1 day with very significant loads... So I mean it depends what you mean by recovery.

Speed: Much more speed is required in olifting... you HAVE to lift the bar SO fast. The snatch is completed in LESS than 1 second by the top O lifters. 1 second! Think about it.. You have to fully extend (usually triple extend), lift a bar that is about 2x bodyweight over your head... then, change directions in a split second and receive the bar. Now that is SPEED and QUICKNESS as its absolute most extreme, along with POWER (force x distance/ time).

If you want to talk about power... (force x distance) / time.... O lifters are, hands down, the most powerful without a doubt. They move HUGE weights, over a far distance, in a FAST amount of time.

Quickness/Agility is usually defined as your ability to rapidly change directions fast... No other strength sport truly embodies this like Olympic Weightlifting... In a snatch, clean, or a jerk... it is an absolute must to switch directions in order to complete the lift.

I would say strongman does include speed, agility, quickness, strength, endurance, and recovery. but to what degree does it REALLY embody SPEED AGILITY QUICKNESS and ENDURANCE? I mean, it depends on definition of endurance as well. the SAQ- sure strongman need some, but, compared to olifters they are not even close to being as fast, agile, or quick. If you wanted to line them up in a 40 yard dash- it would be no contest. If you wanted to cone shuttle drill, no contest. I fyou wanted to have them lift the most amount of weight as FAST as possible, again no contest. If you wanted them to perform a big time athletic endeavor, such as lining up as a WR, RB, CB, S, etc.. again,

NO contest in my eyes because you simply cannot compete with olifters power (force x distance/ time). They move the most weight, the fastest. Will they always be able to out deadlift a strongman? NO. Is deadlifting "athletic?" Is benching "athletic?" Is their normal diet "eat anything to gain weight" that of a true athlete?

Genetically speaking, olifters have the most fast twitch muscle fibers... Just watch all of the sports and it will NOT take long to see this.. Fast twich muscle fibers= faster rate of contraction (^ speed, ^agility, ^ quickness, ^ power, and in many cases ^ strength).

[Jared Enderton]

and I am NOT dissing strongman at all.. heck, I sitll love that sport. I Did it for over 2 years. I just think that athletically there really isn't a comparison. STrength wise- that could be a great debate for a later date...

[cwetlaufer]

I think it is a good argument to make, I just disagree with your basis.

My main discrepancy is in your use of taking an oly lifter vs. a strongman on the gridiron. I think this is a poor example, I have never seen someone who only lifted, in whatever fashion be successful in football. Be it oly lifting, powerlifting, etc.

The main thing I think that needs to be considered is we need to take out the discussion of the average competitors in any sport. If you go to a local strongman contest you will see many who are poor athletes. I also believe this is true with olympic lifting, at least in the contests I've seen.

We should be discussing the ELITE levels of training, really I think the only way to do this is in theory. I don't know of any examples where strictly a lifter has crossed over to another sport (be it track and field, football, basketball, etc) and had success.

And I think in the US it is hard to find top strongman who didn't do something else. In fact in your example Jared, of the 40, agility drills, etc, I would guess there were many more ex- football players who competed at a high level crossover to strongman. I do not know of many oly lifters (granted my knowledge of oly lifting as far as individuals is very low).

But I also am saying nothing bad about oly lifting, powerlifting or otherwise. But I think in order for this discussion to be valid it has to be about the actual sport the athlete is competing in.

And maybe my perception is way off considering the guy who started this thread, and my training partner, has NFL levels of agility and speed as proven in testing. I know that is certainly not the norm of LW strongman....But you could also make the argument he, or myself for that matter, are ex-football players who train strongman. Also, it would be interesting, and I think we will do it, for Phil and I to test all the old football assesments and see where we stack up to our old PR's when we were training for those tests vs now when we only train for strongman.

[cwetlaufer]

Speed=Distance traveled/time traveled. I have seen strongman I considered fast in a relative fashion. But I have never seen a strongman event with no weight, so speed is relative considered to mass moved. For example, a semi pulling a full load vs a race car. Both move at high speeds, obviously ones speed is much faster, but the mass moved is very different. I guess I have never thought of any single plane of motion being a "speed" thing. Clean and jerk, snatch, stones, log, axle, db, squats, deads.....all of these move in a single plane. I don't think speed is the real term here, these are more measures of quickness I think.

Agility-I think you are right here. Strongman with good agility are better, as are oly lifters I'm sure. But there are also many examples in strongman where agility is lacking. If you look at Phil Pfister's training video the year he won WSM, his agility is worse then most high school football players. I do think there are many strongman who possess high levels of agility, but is it developed through strongman....fair question. In oly lifting there is a high level of coordination required. The lifts are extremely technical and require a large amount of agility to perform them profitiantly.
Quickness-Oly lifting has the edge here. there is no question that in a comparison of POWER Oly lifting is the top of the hill.
Strength- Both sports have VERY high levels of strength. My only question is in functionality. I used to live with a very good powerlifter, he couldn't load a stone. He demonstrated the complete lack of functional strength. He could bench 500, dead 750, and squat over 600, but in a "real world" situation he was useless. Oly lifting is MUCH more funtional then powerlifting, but does it translate as well as strongman? I don't know? This is a tough call, but to truly compete in oly lifting I believe the level of technique has to be so high the specificity is very precise.....But clean and jerking or snatching still has huge carryover since they are both measures of overall body power.
Endurance- I hadn't considered training, only competition. 2 events for 6 max attempts vs. 5-6 events, one of them usually a max 3 attempt event in the same time period. There are tons of training variables and discussions so I am choosing to not try and compare those. But in competition you have, like you said, often 1 sec of exertion in oly lifting. Vs 1-2 minutes medleys.
Recovery- Again I was thinking about the requirements of competition. I don't believe this is really tested in oly lifting the same way multiple diciplines requires.

I agree 100% on the power output as I said earlier. Olympic lifting is certainly on top for explosiveness as well. But I believe those are different then athleticism.

There is no definitive answer, I'm sure this debate could rage on for a long time.

[phil]

Jared, you don't think lifting a stone or a log uses fast twitch muscle? Just because a movement is slow doesn't mean it is using slow twitch muscles.

Everyone,
Speed: I think good Strongmen can complete a stone series very fast. So fast I may even say, "That guy is fast!" Same thing with carrying events. Or even pulling events. All speed is relative. Try comparing Mr. Bolt to a Cheetah. You can't. You have to compare him to other humans in the same event. Now I don't know this, but I bet all Olympic lifters move the weight from the floor to above their head at about the same speed. Which would make speed and non-issue. Yes, for the lift you have to have speed, but everyone possesses approximately the same speed. I say edge goes to Strongman. 1-0

Agility/Quickness: There really isn't a need for agility in strongman, although I would say some competitors are quick. For example, you have to have very quick hands while pulling an object towards you. The faster you can grab and regrab the rope will make a big difference in how fast the object gets from point A to point B. Are strongmen Quicker than Olympic lifters... No way. Edge goes to Olympic lifters. 1-1

Strength: I'm to to say this is equal. I think if you would test competitors pound for pound things would match up equally. I'd bet not too many strongmen can snatch anything...

Endurance: Just based on the fact that there are events in Strongman that are further than zero feet, I have to give the edge to Strongman. 2-1

Recovery: I am going to have to call this a tie as well. Even though Strongman has six events, Oly lifters are doing two events multiple times. Recovery is a huge factor in both sports.

Speed: I'd say this one goes to the Oly guys. I don't think it is required any more than Strongman but if you don't have speed you'll miss the lift in Olympic lifting. In Strongman you'll just get last place. Which is almost as bad as missing a lift. 2-2

Jared - "If you want to talk about power... (force x distance) / time.... O lifters are, hands down, the most powerful without a doubt. They move HUGE weights, over a far distance, in a FAST amount of time."

- Once again, I know nothing about Oly lifting besides that fact that I can't do it. But I don't see the bar moving really far or really fast. Isn't the lifters who are dropping themselves under the bar at amazing speeds?


I'm would say the if you take the best Oly lifter and the best Strongman the Oly lifter will have a faster 40 time, agility drill, and vertical jump. But, the question was which sport do you have to be more athletic to do? And, since you have to run, lift, pull, push, hold and climb in Strongman, it is the more athletic lifting sport. Now it was said Oly lifters would make better WR's and Corners in the NFL. I just got the new Muscle and Fitness and on the cover is Miles Austin, a top WR in the NFL. The magazine shows him doing log and I think tire flip. Iowa and Penns' football programs both have their athletes train Strongman. Now, they all probably do cleans as well but I'd say they get better results from the Strongman events. Also, Olympic lifting has been around for ever and yet you don't see it in peoples training logs. Strongman is still a newer sport and you already see it in college football strength programs.

[Alex Moss (Chomper)]

wow, this thread is getting serious. I hope we can all be friends still once it's done and over with, haha.

After reading everyone's thoughts, I'd like to say that everyone has good arguments and reasonings of which sport has to be more athletic.

First off, I agree that Iowa and Penn St use strongman training in their workout, however, Oly lifting dominates their training regimen. Throughout their meso and macrocycles, they switch up the training to keep the body guessing and shock the hell out of it. However, the one aspect that you will see in every mesocycle is oly lifts. Why is that, bc of the technique and skill required to perform the lifts with heavy weight. This requires the athletes to become more in-tune with their bodys and how they move. And most importantly it trains hip explosion which is vital in almost every sport.

I'll give it to strongman, that, yes, they do move with weight. But when I think of someone being athletic, I think of this person having the ability to move quickly, vertically and laterally. The amount of bar velocity that a oly lifter can produce is absolutely mind blowing. And Phil you say that oly lifters dont move the bar very fast or high, and that the speed comes from them pulling themselves under the bar. Athletically, for oly lifters to change direction so rapidly from downward forces while pulling the bar up, to pulling themselves under the bar after generating high forces in one direction and changing that force in the opposite direction is by far more athletic.

Also, when I think of someone being athletic, I think of someone that is highly fast twitch muscle fibers. If we're talking about elite level competitors here, then take a look at any elite athlete. More than likely their bodies are made mostly of fast twitch fibers, A and B. Fast twitch fibers allow these athletes to develop a great amount of force very quickly. Which is why they can change direction so rapidly.

If you havent figured it out yet, I'm saying oly lifting requires more athletic ability. For the fact that they are; explosive, agile, strength, flexible, power production, and coordinated. Dont get me wrong, strongman still requires athletic ability, but in my opinion, oly lifters are far more athletic. At least we all agree that powerlifters arent in the running, haha.

Just a little insight: earlier this week at the 2010 World Weightlifting Championship a 69kg (152 lbs) oly lifter from china, clean and jerked 198kg (435.6 lbs).

[Jared Enderton]

"My main discrepancy is in your use of taking an oly lifter vs. a strongman on the gridiron. I think this is a poor example, I have never seen someone who only lifted, in whatever fashion be successful in football. Be it oly lifting, powerlifting, etc. "

Colin- you must have misread my basis. That is not what I was saying at all. Nobody who just lifts can step onto a football field and succeed. Well, 99.9% of people can't. I am saying... if strongman & oly lifters were both FORCED to- oly lifters would be 10x more prepared because of HOW they train (always training primarily their fast twitch muscle fibers). Because of them having a higher % of fast twitch muscle fibers (I would say on average theyr have a higher %), and because thery train them MUCH more frequently, they would be much more well adapted to switch over, if FORCED to.