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Post by Jared Enderton on Mar 26, 2011 13:02:32 GMT -5
I used to be a HARDCORE bulgarian advocate...Now, believe it or not everyone, I am not so much. haha crazy huh? Gosh, I change my mind more than a damn woman. I believe in a combination of training.
Once just starting training should be focused on a variety of strength exercises (say, something like the russian or chinese systems). Then, as an athlete progresses their strength background, they should go through a period where 80% of their training is just the snatch and clean and jerk...to perfect their technique. This period should be about 4-8 months. This could happen a VARIETY of times over the course of a 6 year period, say once a year, or once every couple years. Just to make "perfect."
Then, after this period, the athlete should focus on a variety of training exercises...Maybe not a huge variety, but a variety. Why? You do have to try to continue to get stronger. A large part of the training should be focused on getting the squat stronger. Block work should be implemented to strengthen the power position and work on staying over the bar.
The full lifts should still be implemented multiple times a week. Just, you have to do a wider variety of exercises to make those weak points int he lift stronger. Do some pulls to overload the finish. Do some block wrok from various heights to really strengthen that portion of the pull. Do some good jerks from blocks to overload the jerk. Do some half front squats to mimmick standing up from a clean (after catching the bounce).
WHO WOULDA THUNK I WOULD SPIN MY WHEELS AND NOW BE BACK TO BELIEVING IN A WIDER VARIETY OF EXERCISES? You can't say I am that bullheaded...Because my theories are always changing as my training progresses and changes. Most of it has stemmed from my frustration and struggles with my OWN technique! simply drilling the snatch and clean and jerk every session to maximal has NOT helped my technique ONE BIT. why? Because every time I just reinforce bad habits. Then, when I get tired, I get even worse technique and over compensate. If you don't have great technique ppl say the bulgarian system forces you to do it right because you have to be efficient to make a lift when fatigued. OR- It forces you do overcompensate and do it wrong just for the sake of doing more weight, and just reinforces bad technique MORE OFTEN. It makes a bad problem worse if you have bad technique.
Moss- what you think?
Brendan- what you think?
Garrett- ??
Colin-- ??
Phil- ??
Vince- ??
Stocks- ??
Simon- ??
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Post by Alex Moss (Chomper) on Mar 26, 2011 13:28:28 GMT -5
wow J-Rod, u just blew my mind, haha. the bulgarian believing J-rod that i knew is dead... however, thats not a bad thing. When i get more time, I'll chime my .02 cents in on the topic.
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Post by vdecke on Mar 26, 2011 15:46:49 GMT -5
That's a great post Jared. Those are excellent ideas and explanations for why a particular assistance exercise should be included in a program. Like I said before, we are all growing in our understanding of what will work best and have to be willing to adjust when the old way isn't working like we want it to.
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Post by Jared Enderton on Mar 26, 2011 18:05:45 GMT -5
I mean I still do believe that practicing the skill and the art of the snatch and clean are necessary. You still must do it OFTEN, and go heavy often. However, I Don't believe it is smart to max every single day. Sure, maybe for a period of time to overload and to really get a response out of the system.
For Example: I went from a 114kg snatch to a 124kg snatch in 3 weeks of bulgarian training. Then, on bulgarian type of training it took me like 5 weeks to go from 124-130 (it happened all in one day). Then, on bulgarian I got to 135kg in about another month). Then, I got to 140kg about 3 months later. Then, 147kg like 3 months after that.
Moss: He went from like a 101kg snatch (ish) to a 113kg snatch, his power versions went up a total of like 26kg, and his clean sky rocketed to 145kg. I mean he POWER cleaned 139kg, his old CJ PR. This was all within a 6 week time frame. I mean he BLEW UP.
Why? Why did we see such great results? Because. we. were. doing. the. lifts. daily. We were doing a morning session (mostly for flexibility purposes and up to about 80%), then maximal in the PM. We improved so much because OUR TECHNIQUE BOTH SUCKED!! So, once we started doing it daily, we became more efficient. We started to get a rhythm on the lifts. ONCE this was the case (Say after 6 weeks for Moss), perhaps a switch back to a regular style of training would be best. MAybe the chinese system with LESS deadlifts and MORE actual lifts. I feel the deadlifts take too much out of you (And your ability to really rip on a barbell/low back fatigue and recovery is just tanked after deadlifting). Sure, you can deadlift every so often, but that is my general feeling right now.
Learn how to do the lifts, then, do a variety o flifts to strengthen the portion of the lifts. Find your WEAKNESS, then instead of trying to fix it through constant snatching and clean and jerking, break it down via accessory movements to make it a strength. Say your area around the knees sucks, work on starting off the blocks just below the knees...and work it until you can do it in your sleep (with the right video analysis and coaching eye available). Why hammer the full lift and try to fix it when obviously you haven't been able to? Find the weakness, fix it, move on to the next weakness.
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Post by Simon klimesh on Mar 26, 2011 22:17:36 GMT -5
First off, very good thread guys.
Now for my point of view. As far as I'm concerned I just keep getting more and more HARDCORE Bulgarian in my philosophy. I'm down to SN and CJ, high intensity, and minimal squatting in the 100-110 percentage reange of CJ.
One part of me thinks that doing the SN and CJ everyday is very important to develop muscle memory where you can make lifts without 'thinking'. The other part of me thinks I could do just as well training 4 days a week and the intensity being more level in the 95%+ range. We will see. Perhaps I'm just an obsessive compulsivity sort of guys which is why I favor doing SN and CJ daily regardless of intensities.
As for Jared's "strength" point of view. Like how you need to get strong and you need "strength". All that makes me think of is Jianping calling every exercise that wasn't snatch or clean and jerk related "strength" exercises. At this point in time I do not believe a weightlifter needs that form of "strength" if that's what you want to call it. I'm die hard and I believe all you need is SN and CJ "strength". Lately I have watched a 14 yr. old clean and jerk 79@62 with best front squat of 85 or 108% of his CJ. I've also watched a 17 yr. old CJ 160@89 with best front squat of 170, who routinely only makes 160. Assistance exercises don't mean shit.
That being said I firmly believe in talent. Jared Enderton is talented. Alex Moss is talented. I don't know where I'm going with this talent rant, but it makes a difference. Just because someone isn't talented doesn't mean they don't have to train twice a day to reach the peak of what they can do, even if that is less than what a talented person can do with only training three time a week. Believe it or not there are "Rudy's" out there with little to no athletic ability who give it there all everyday and are somehow hanging in there with the talented.
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Post by Alex Moss (Chomper) on Mar 27, 2011 12:23:02 GMT -5
I agree with ya J-Man. Looking back at when we were doing the lifts everyday and maxing out daily, we did blow up, was it worth it, absolutely! however, i do believe that, that style of training should only be done for a certain length of time, like u said Jared, to overload the body systems, and shock the hell out of it. I mean look at what it did for us. I will say that, yes, our technique was horrific when we started, which was one major key to our success of getting the gains we did, it developed and got better. we developed better motor units, and its not that we got "stronger" right away, but we were able to recruit more muscle fibers. but look after the 4-5, maybe 6 week range, we started to plateau. and i believe that's bc our technique reached a certain point where it was better, however, it wasnt great yet, we were still developing bad habits and reinforcing them by maxing daily. Also, there's a fatigue factor that you need to calculate in. 5-6 weeks of two-a-days and daily maxing, yeah of course there's goin to be fatigue. which also inhibited our chances of continued success, bc there again we had to critique out technique to overcome that fatigue. then again, u also need to look at our outside living. school, work, relationships, etc that play a role in our ability to recover for a "bulgarian" type program. Anyway, as u were saying Jared, accessory exercises. As I've helped coach people and my kids at East, I've also started to develop a liking for alternative exercises. Everyone has there strengths and weaknesses. Why hammer something over and over again when u know what the weaknesses are, and if that hammering doesnt develop, break it down. like you were saying Jared, if a person is weak in their pull around knee high, work it, strengthen it, develop it into a strength. dont avoid it and just assume it'll come along eventually. its like, if u have a scratch on ur car, you're not going to paint your whole car, that'd be over doing it, just touch up the spot that needs it. for example, Church, his technique was pretty decent, yea there were things about this clean that killed the kid, not mentioning his diet, but thats another topic. if i was his coach, he'd be living in squat rack. just my philosophy. I'm not saying, u should only work ur weak areas, but why not do additional work here and there to improve them. there definitely is a time to focus on "the lifts" is it all the time?? is it 3 days a week?? 4 days?? who knows, thats the great thing about this sport, there are so many types and styles of training. and not one type will work for everyone. personally, there should be a blend of styles throughout your macrocycle. dont just hop from one style to another, but blend them accordingly to when your events are, and around whatever else is goin on in your life. if someone, hops from one style to another, your body will never be able to adapt and adjust. for example, after a comp, do a strength phase, then as the next meet comes closer, transition into a peak power phase. now, deadlifts, i do believe they need to done, however, like Jared said, not very often. bc i do think they do tax ur pull ability. solely bc of the fatigue that it develops in the back. ur back is so vital to this sport, it needs to be ready to go daily. Simon, i dont really agree with your squat method, not saying that ur wrong and i'm right. but i do believe squats play a major role in a WL's ability. one major reason is bc of the testosterone and hormonal release that squatting produces. with elevated levels of testosterone, u have more energy, and you feel alert and ready for action. squatting doesnt only strengthen your legs, but your entire body, bc of the hormones being released from the testies. Also, that testosterone and those hormones aid in recovery, why else would people use them illegally to aid in sport performance, it allows them to push harder day in and day out bc they are able to recover that much faster. With my WL kids at East, i wanted to experiment with a squat program, just to see how it would produce and translate over to the lifts. I put em on the 1976 russian squat routine, they squatted 3 days a week for 6 weeks. one kid's max was 140 and after he went up to 160. during that time, his snatch went up like 5 kg and his CJ went up 13 kg and his clean 15. the other kid showed similar results, 145 to 160 squat, and cj went up 10 kg. when they were doing this program, on their "recovery days" where the squats were lighter, we focused on both snatch and cj variations, and on "loading days" they focused on one of the two lifts, either snatch or cj. I wouldnt do this all the time, but its a great way to shock the body by implementing a periodization type program. and from what i've noticed, when u strictly WL, with little to no type a planned periodization, your body blows up bc of it. all in all, bulgarian system is a taxing style of training. does it work, yes, should it be done continually as an average joe. pry not. for most american lifters, who havent been training since they were 7 or 8, and drilling technique everyday for years, like other countries. a variety of lifts is important, bc more than likely, you have flaws and problems with your technique. and without working those weak areas, and repeatedly doing them over and over, you're only goin to make em worse and make it more difficult to change or kick those habits to the curb. well thats my .02 cents. its a little long, "that's what she said," but deal with it......haha
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Post by Jared Enderton on Mar 27, 2011 16:54:44 GMT -5
Simon, to that I respond:How is Bulgaria currently doing with their system? My follow up questions are:How are the Chinese doing? How are the Russians doing? How are the Polish doing? How are the Belorussians doing? How are the Kazakhstan athletes doing? How are the Koreans doing? ^They^ don't train "Bulgarian" style. Simplicity (Bularian program) + massive amounts of drugs used to be the ticket...Now, small amount of drugs + complexity is the ticket. The proof is in the puddin'
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Post by Jared Enderton on Mar 27, 2011 16:59:28 GMT -5
Simon, Kendrick can back squat 240x10, and can clean and jerk 211kgs @ 87kg BW. or, 203kgs at 85kg BW. He can also deadlift a ton as well.
How LIGHT is the bar going to feel if it is 60% of your deadlift? Say, I snatch deadlift 270kgs, and I snatch 150kg. 60% feels SUPER light then. However, if my max snatch deadlift is 200kg, that is lik e80% of my best snatch deadlift and it will feel WAY HEAVIER. It is WAY easier to rip a barbell that is 50% of your max than it is a barbell that is 75% of your max that you have ever picked up.
As far as muscle memory- If you have great technique you won;t "forget" how to snatch/clean and jerk. Jared Fleming didn't snatch for TWO MONTHS prior to the American Open cause of his wrist...Yet he snatched 150 and cj's 190. He didn't "forget" how to snatch. Why are people afraid of that? Am I going to forget how to drive a car if I walk around town for a week? Sure, lifting is much more complex bujt if that's a fear you can easily just program in more ACTUAL lifts as you get 4-5 weeks out from a competition.
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Post by Simon klimesh on Mar 27, 2011 19:48:38 GMT -5
"I have a strong belief that technique refines itself and speaks to the weightlifter over time allowing them to correct mistakes solely with consistency in their training."
"The word recovery is an evil word used by individuals who have no confidence in themselves."
"Adaptation is what you must be thinking about, not recovery. "
"Training athletes to achieve maximum strength performance requires adapting them to the movement of specificity.''
"In order to lift the heaviest of weights you have to practice with max weights multiple times a day. A great weightlifter should be able to make it to a maximum weight within five attempts. The session will last less than 30 minutes and be repeated 2-5 times a day. This process is continued weekly until the weightlifter begins to not think anymore but only reacts. The body becomes much stronger this way, connective tissues become stronger, bone density improves, and your organs go into overdrive."
"Pulls don't mean shit in this sport. Pulls don't mean a damn thing. You got to try. You got pull, go under, and try."
- all quotes of Donny Shankle
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Post by Jared Enderton on Mar 27, 2011 20:49:32 GMT -5
How many Olympic Teams has he made? Trust me, I am NOT hating on Donny Shankle. I think he is a fricken man's man and an even better guy. I talk to him all the time. We are even planning a trip to go train overseas for 2 weeks within this year together. The dude is just a straight great guy and a WARRIOR.
But how many has he made? He's won 2 national titles...(+1 collegiate national title). He is a HELL of a lifter.
Just an fyi for you- he trains 3-4 days per week right now (1x per day). HARDLY BULGARIAN!! Yet, he is up to 160/200 (cleaned 202, missed 170 sn behind) on his comeback training this way. 3-4 sessions PER WEEK. Despite a badly injured hip from years of overuse.
What we should be asking is houmstancesw KENDRICK trains, how VAUGHN trains, how KRYCH trains, how BRUCE trains...None of them bulgarian (not even close). We have to look at the top guys in our own country that are subject to the same circumstances we are and ask how they train. Olympians.
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Post by Jared Enderton on Mar 27, 2011 20:53:11 GMT -5
There is NO one system that is perfect for everyone. I understand that. But doing a watered down version of the Bulgarian system DEFEATS THE PURPOSE OF DOING A BULGARIAN SYSTEM. Either you snatch and clean and jerk and squat to a max 3-6 times per day or IT defeats the entire purpose of the system! You won't see the results. And ANY version of this system done in the US is a watered down version. You have to look at why Abadjiev wanted this system. IF you are simply training 1x per day 6 days per week and going to max...You are only missing say, oh, 24 sessions per week from the BULGARIAN SYSTEM.
People still see decent results on the bulgarian system in the US, because they do generally get very efficient on the lifts. However, all of our best lifters (over the past 8 or so years) have all used a different system. There is a reason for that.
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Post by Simon klimesh on Mar 28, 2011 14:57:51 GMT -5
Kendrick's last big total was @ the 08' Olympics so technically he hasn't improved in almost 3 YEARS. I like what you wrote about doing Bulgarian for 6-8 months every so often. I believe that is what VAUGHN does. Perhaps it's Kendrick's turn to catch that train for 6-8 months.
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phil
Full Member
Posts: 196
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Post by phil on Mar 28, 2011 16:02:14 GMT -5
Find your WEAKNESS, then instead of trying to fix it through constant snatching and clean and jerking, break it down via accessory movements to make it a strength.
I totally agree with this statement. I think if someone always did this while still working on the technique of the snatch and the clean and jerk they would find the weight feeling lighter and lighter. And, when the weight feels lighter the technique will be easier to execute.
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Post by Jared Enderton on Mar 28, 2011 16:13:51 GMT -5
HA! Kendrick's sinclair is also WAY higher, making it WAY higher to progress. He has added kgs to his clean and jerk in that time. Once you reach THAT level, it becomes much harder in order to improve. It doesn't stay linear.
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Post by Simon klimesh on Mar 28, 2011 20:58:28 GMT -5
Alex, you mentioned how the back squat is a testosterone boaster and that is very interesting as we all want testosterone in this sport. Could you touch up on this subject a bit more. Was it proven that it increases more testosterone more so that the front squat? Is it the ultimate testosterone building exercise?
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