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Post by kingklavetter on May 25, 2010 18:02:38 GMT -5
I think I would benefit from training events everyday I am in the gym. Stones 2-3 times a week, yoke once, farmers 2-3, OH daily, axle deadlift once.
the gym lifts will be accessory lifts with an emphasis on power cleans, front squats, OH strict press/push press and deadlifts. What are peoples thoughts on this?
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Post by Jared Enderton on May 25, 2010 19:01:57 GMT -5
Farmers 2-3x/week + axle deadlifts, + yoke, +stones 2-3x/week, +oly lifts multiple times a week, + deadlifts.... I honestly do not know if your back can take that in 1 week, seriously. That is SO back heavy. ouch. I am not saying it CAN'T be done, but, I Am saying that it would have to be super light for a long time in order to adapt.
I know after doing log, farmers, some moving event, then stones in 1 day I would barely be able to move until 3 days later, literally... I know our training may be different on what we would do that day but just saying... Yoke would be even worse.
I'd like to see the full program and look at it but my first impression is...too much too soon. Strongman is much different than weightlifting in terms of recovery, IMO.
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Post by cwetlaufer on May 25, 2010 20:01:15 GMT -5
Thats basically how Marunde trained toward the end, and like Jared said it was all light (relativly speaking of course) except for some planned ramp up days. He said on his site once he had a contest with a 900 yoke in it which he won. That was a PR yoke run by 50 lbs. He got pretty sick endurance doing that, but he sucked in REALLY heavy shows, and at max events (except OH).
Marshal White said when he stopped training with Jesse his medleys got a little worse for a while, but his static strength went up so much it didn't matter.
I do SOME events most days I train, but like Jared said, with events being SOO back heavy it is an awful lot to handle for the posterior chain.
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Post by vincedecker on May 27, 2010 21:09:09 GMT -5
I would say start out with farmer's two times per week and see how it goes. One heavy day and one speed day. I definitely would not do stones multiple times per week though.
I also would not do any strict pressing, unless you are rehabing a shoulder. No carry over to any event. Push presses work your lock out power even better and allow you use more weight because you are incorporating your legs (obviously). You always incorporate your legs during an event, so the push press is better "practice" for overhead events.
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Post by Jared Enderton on May 27, 2010 21:22:03 GMT -5
very good discussion going here. vince has a few good points
my biggest advice would be... if you are going to do it, really give it a shot and do it. You may die for a few weeks/month but, you would probably adapt. So, don't just do it for a week or 2 and give up, as that is way too soon to see if it is really going to work.
vince brings up a great point in the strict press...IMO it is completely worthless. You could probably take a dump and get just as much carryover to strongman (or weightlifting for that matter), in that you'd be squatting your bodyweight a couple times and really squeezing your core to get it out. LOL.
strict pressing 80kg is NOT going to help you jerk 140kg, nor will it help you press a 140kg axle. However, push pressing 115kg may help you as it really makes you use your legs and arms together and gives you that last little lockout ability with a pretty heavy weight, whereas a strict press is just teaching you and your body how to lock out what, 50% of your weight you ACTUALLY want to lift? That is not helping the triceps at all.
I will pry post a new thread for that discussion or write an article or something. Let the debating begin!
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Post by cwetlaufer on May 27, 2010 23:02:42 GMT -5
I disagree on the strict press bashing. While I agree it is not a good main excercise for OH, I do find it to be a great accessory. There is a pretty good article on pro-strongman.com about improving the OH and it talks about it. While it reitterates the points made by Vince and Jared that OH strict pressing is a bad way to improve tricep lockout, and actually DOESN't improve tricep lockout. That isn't the point, the point is to improve anterior delt power. On Ortmayers log right now he recently made the temporary switch to adding in a great deal of strict pressing because he felt he had gone backwords in sheer shoulder power. While you can push press or jerk an axle/bar or even a log. Things like keg pressing, block presses, and even the big circus DB's I believe do require a high amount of raw shoulder strength. And although OH in strongman is mostly about leg and tricep power (80-90%), I think strict pressing does serve a purpose.
Personally I haven't found success with push pressing, I understand its purpose and on paper it makes a ton of sense, I actually was improving doing it. Just not as fast as I've improved since switching to more direct heavy tricep work, and focusing my OH work on event specific technique.
Everything I said of course needs to be taken in context since I have the worst press/BW ratio of anyone who has posted on this thread, at least so far;)
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Post by vincedecker on May 28, 2010 10:18:55 GMT -5
I haven't read that article, just going by personal experience (which is probably mainly what that author is doing as well). This may be a deal where the way someone is proportioned dictates whether the exercise will profit them.
That being said, I don't understand why push pressing wouldn't increase anterior delt power just as well or better than strict pressing (as well as being better for your tris)? I also feel there has to be something said for getting used to handling bigger weights on your shoulder. I was always pretty good at strict pressing and wish they would bring it back to weightlifting! However, they aren't gonna do so and I always felt it was just a "show lift" for me. I could always work up to 30+lbs over bw within 2-3 weeks of incorporating the lift once per week. In other words, I felt the result of shoulder strength came from heavy push pressing, which I did every week.
There was one point that I did use strict pressing as an accessory consistently in the 8 week ramp up period before a contest with a max log press, and I had a good result at that show. However, the majority of the time, my experience was: when my push press went up, my log went up. I always had to push press a heavy log (couldn't jerk it), so it makes sense that a getting used to the biomechanics of the movement was a real benefit as well. Hope that makes sense. Good discussion.
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Post by cwetlaufer on May 28, 2010 11:32:20 GMT -5
You may be right about the article. It was written by Pete Konradt, I'll try and find it. He has monkey like arms and there may be something to that. Also as body types go, with both you(Vince) and Jared sharing the same sentiments towards push pressing with similar arm proportions there may be something to that? Maybe being built very differently personally I don't get the same carryover from the lift.
As for why a strict press should work the anterior muscles harder, with the leg drive at the start of the lift on a push press, the press should really take over at a point where it is mostly triceps. So your legs are driving the bar (ideally) to a point at which your tricep power can drive the bar to lockout. In a strict press the power generated to get the bar to the same position comes directly from your anterior delt muscles. Obviously in a push press (or jerk) there is still a great deal of anterior delt involvement. And also the greater the weight capacity placed on the fibers the greater the potential fiber recruitment is. Like squats vs leg extensions. The extensions may more directly work your quad, but obviously the squats result in more fiber recruitment.
In saying that, this is why I don't feel the strict press can be a main movement. Much like DB flyes make a poor main movement for chest work. But both, in my opinion, make good accessory lifts.
Also a good point about your log pressing. I am not a natural presser, and have always struggled to push press anything, log or otherwise. So I rely heavily on the jerk. Also, as you stated with your naturally good strict pressing ability in relation to your bw, I am definatly not in the same boat. So maybe this is a lift that is very specific to motor pathways.
And if thats the case king, listen to them, because I think you three are more closely built the same.
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Post by Jared Enderton on May 28, 2010 19:40:42 GMT -5
first of all, king, I think that you may be crazy attempting this schedule. I would really consider revamping it to not have so many events so frequently (mainly farmers/stones/overhead that many times a week).
awesome discussion ont he strict press. I will chime in more on my thoughts tmrw... one thing is for certain- there is more than 1 way to be a great presser. There isn;'t ONE way of training to get there. I tihnk we all understand that. Perhaps discussing what will have the most carryover is a great way to do it as well, not necessarily a "one size fits all" approach.
Cheers to everyone on the discussion so far, I like it.
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